Friday, May 4, 2018

Facing radical Islam

Well, I think I need to start taking the advice of my husband, who a while back said to me, basically, you can be a perfectionist, or you can put more out there. Sigh. I'm a perfectionist haha, at least when it comes to things I care about. I'm also a mom, and I work, and I'm a student, and so I have limited time. I'm coming around to the realization that I think Geoff is right though, if I wait for things I write to be just right, I'm going to be trying to figure out how to get into my blog, like today, more often than posting.

My other realization in debating Muslims online, which I have done for years at this point, is that for every time I answer a question or a point in debating, that there is a whackload of other Muslims out there who think the same thing, or have the same question. There's one of me, and literally thousands, in fact, hundreds of thousands of people debating on online sites. I've taken to making my own page, called New Reformation Apologetics Ministries on Facebook, to put out some of my responses to their questions.

This morning I came home from work and read a response in an online discussion from a new Muslim friend, and, though I won't post her response or name out of respect for her privacy, it basically answers what I have found to be common is discussions with Muslims. Muslims seem to have a general inability for self criticism. I don't think this is a coincidence. I've seen it too often, and I think the reason for that is because what radicals are doing, very much ties in with the early history and larger mentality of the religion, to control and to dominate other cultures and peoples. I think there is a reason for that, in that Islam is a product of the Arab conquests, and being foundational to Islamic societies, as their origins, it's shaped the thinking of the larger culture.

Muslims, in continuing to believe in the initial justification of the ideology, as well as ongoing efforts to continue what Islamic writings promoted at that time, but are also a product of that time, becomes a circular pattern of thinking and responding. Modern Muslims, in justifying their early history, which is foundational to Islam, need to see such efforts as justified. Which is why Islam and the actions of Muslims are rarely criticized, but the actions of their political opponents, are severely criticized. These writings are setting Muslims up for continued conflict throughout the world, but Islamic writings are rarely questioned, because Muslims continue to assume that these writings are from God.

With that introduction in mind, here is my response to one Muslim, when she stated that ISIS was not Islamic:

Sigh, dear Emira, let me say first off, like I said last night, I'm not saying that world politics and big business are innocent. My faith is not in the Western world. I don't follow the news at length, but I'm married to someone who does, and from articles he shows me, I think the whole world system is corrupt. Just as there is corruption in the Muslim world, there is corruption in the West. I really don't trust the powers that be, I really don't. The West is not Christian, well, let me rephrase that, it is and it isn't. There's a Christian influence in one sense, and in another sense, the West has abandoned Christianity for materialism, naturalism, consumerism, and so forth. I say that because my sense is that Muslims think of the West as Christian, and assume that all these things are coming from a Christian influence, and that simply is not true. There has been a secular influence on the West especially in the last number of decades, but for centuries really, the West has been attacking it's historically Judeo-Christian foundations.

Someone like Hitler, for example, wanted to replace Christianity with a bizarre system of occult beliefs and practices. He may have been baptized a Catholic. He may have used religion, or appealed to the church in early speeches, etc., but he was not someone who was motivated to love and serve their enemies, as Jesus taught. In the same way, I personally question much of what is deemed Christian, like colonialism for instance. How much of that was Christianity, and how much of that was the influence of Darwinism, or larger political and economic interests? I would suggest that there is a bias, in that many of these issues historically have been blamed on Christianity, but when you look beneath the surface, it's not nearly that simple. Even the Crusades were a late response, a very late response in fact, to 400 years of Arab/ Islamic aggression. Am I justifying everything the church has done, no I'm not. We're sinners Sabira, that is the condition of the human heart, that's why the world needs Christ.

What I find when I talk with Muslims though, like you just said, even a group like ISIS, which is clearly a movement to get back to the roots of the Islamic faith, and bring in a new caliphate, Muslims will deny is Islamic. Dear Emira, there is no denying that ISIS or Saudi Arabia being another example that Muslims commonly distance themselves from -is Islamic. There's no denying it. There may be other political factors, and the West may be involved in supporting them -like I said -my faith is not in the West, but they are nonetheless motivated by Islamic sources.

Which is why I'm surprised when Muslims like yourself say that they couldn't possibly be getting this from Islamic sources. Why not? Islam came out of the Arab conquests, Emira. That's what I've been saying, or trying to say, all along, and what I say to Muslims ad nauseum. Do you know why I do that Emira? I don't do that to blame Muslims. I do that because my hope is, that when we begin to understand Islam as a product of geo-political conditions, Muslims will themselves be free to question Islam.

It is not the fault of Muslims that they have been living under a 1400 year old military dictatorship. How much choice have Muslims had in all of this? Very little, for a very long time. I want to give Muslims the freedom, without constantly being afraid, to begin asking questions, for themselves.

It's time to face radical Islam head on, while understanding that these sources came out of a time and place. God had nothing to do with the Arab conquests. Islamic writings are a product of the early Arab state; they're not from God. I'm sorry. Sadly, Muslims have been manipulated by their religious and political leaders for a very long time. The good news is, Muslims have the ability to begin to ask questions. The greater good news, is that the worldview that was forced out of the Muslim world, through censorship and political oppression, has never changed, and offers great hope to a broken world.

Take care Emira, God bless.

John 3:16 New International Version (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.






9 comments:

  1. use the right measure when you measure something.

    when you measure a group of people use the measure of the ideas of the group.

    when you measure a faith you need to search the source of the faith...

    I already had many chatting with you in different topic, while my idea is not to show who is right or who is wrong but to make you understand Islam from inside view. since you saw it as outside.

    As Muslim myself I used to hate the Jews because of their bad history and for what happened in the holy land.

    but when I study them, I learn that they are not far away me.. as If I found my lost brother...

    my problem with you Miss Margaret that you relay too much on outsider sources that fail to understand the issues of Islam from inside and that treat all the Muslims as one group and judge them all as the same. while if you just take your time to study Islam from inside sources you have a decent argue.

    for example when you speak about Arab conquest do you mean Mohammad's wars with the polytheist? or you mean the even of what happened after Mohammad death?
    because what happened after Mohammad like the Umayyah caliphates have nothing to do with Islam, they are just bunch of tyrants that want to roll the Muslim nation as they please and kill anyone who oppose them even Muhammad family and his descenders.

    if you still think that ISIS is Islamic then can you give me one verse in the whole Quran that support ISIS with the full context ?

    the problem is with us and you people we don't study each other in right , we just try to read each other just to find mistakes in the other faith not for searching the truth...

    the Quran state ...
    (3:64) Say, “O People of the Book, let us come to a common word between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside God. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto God).

    God bless and have good day

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  2. I think it's just the opposite that is required, an external evaluation of Islam from the perspective of what is objectively verifiable. We know that there is no evidence for an ideology called Islam or a people called Muslims until the late 7th century. By this time, the early Arab state had subdued a good portion of what had been the Persian and Eastern Roman empires. We also know that Judaism and Christianity predate this new ideology called Islam. So the question becomes in my mind, how is it that both Judaism and early Christianity are both verified by textual and archaeological evidence, when recent research questions such basic facts as the existence of Mecca prior to 741 AD? Feel free to check that date, but where is Mecca on ancient maps? Why is it that for the first 100 years, all the early mosques are facing Petra? It is for these external reasons, if my sources are correct, I think it's fair to ask, was the early Arab state revising more than Jewish and Christian history, in their conquest of much of the then known world? They had every reason to rewrite history. I empathize with what you are saying, in that we do need to try to understand where the other is coming from, but at the same time, there is a place for critical evaluation of the evidence. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and feel free to respond.

    Here's a couple of sources if you're interested. Take care,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOnGvzVceVo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jorBwia9yFw

    ReplyDelete
  3. I understand what are you saying but then again you need to put names ...

    your source is Dan Gibson but give theory but did he prove it ? or just because he say what you like it mean that is truth..

    there people even deny the history of Moses and Jesus and consider them as fairy tale. would you accept their written ?

    of course not, you will say let us argue their work and have healthy discussion.

    so let us say that Dan Gibson is right, then why aren't Muslim to this date still praying to the Patra ? why there is any no trace in Muslims books refer to Patra ?

    all the deviations that happened to the Muslim world have trace that can be seen to this date like Sunni and Shia. so why we don't see this Patra thing also ? can all the Muslims agree to pray to another city so easily?

    the thing is Dan Gibson is wrong, because if he was right then at least we got one sect of Islamic school that share his idea if it was true...

    also you speak about the early Mosques that face the Patra? can you named one for example ?

    and finally when you speak about Arab state ? whom that you speak to ? there is no Arab state that can control all Muslims believes ?

    finally Makkah is real and Mohammad is real as his descenders are real and everywhere in middle east..

    God bless and have nice day

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you. I've answered this but I'm not seeing my response here. Hmmn. Anyway, yes, I'm basing this on Gibson's work which was done on the ground, digging up these early qubla's, and with high tech software that was able to determine that for the first hundred years, all the early mosques were facing Petra, which suggests that the birthplace of Islam was changed. Also, they can't find Mecca on maps until 741, I believe. That's from memory, so feel free to check that date, but I believe Mecca is absent from early maps until 741.

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  4. Margaret where you get all those false information about Islam? I recommend you to read books by Karen Armstrong both Battle for God and Muhammad.

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  5. My understanding is that Karen Armstrong is relying on secondary sources. I'm not interested in secondary sources. I'm interested in the primary literature. I invite you to read the primary literature of Judaism, and Christianity and Islam. That's what we all need to be doing, and so many of us are not. Thanks for your thoughts. Take care.

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  6. The principle component of the Islamic financial framework is that it is Interest-Free. As the Qur'an says in Sura al-Baqara Chapter 2 Verses 278 and 279, "O ye who accept! dread Allah and surrender what survives from your interest for usury in case ye are without a doubt devotees. muslim community

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